10 replies to this topic

[SifuPhil]

In any discussion on Taoism (forgive my use of this spelling - it's what I've used for over 40 years) it is important to differentiate between the philosophical and religious practice of the Taoist principles. Some say that they are the same but I maintain that there is a world of difference between them.

The biggest difference in my opinion is that a religion is a structure, a tight, restrictive cage within which one must practice their beliefs. Philosophical Taoism has no such restraints - its practice area is unbounded. Religion imposes ritual and authority upon its practitioners. It decrees what must be obeyed, rather than suggests what might be followed.

The main principles of Taoism were recognized long before they were coalesced into a religion mainly in response to the growing popularity of Buddhism and Confucianism. It was a case of "Hey! We have gods and goddesses too!"

Once the nature-based principles of Taoism were burdened with this mantle it became just another man-made religion.

Philosophical Taoism does away with the myths and legends, the ceremonies and the gilt-covered guilt and seeks merely to blend with the Way. It reflects reality - it can be as simple as Male and Female or as complex as Doing without Doing. The principles that Philosophical Taoism - as opposed to Religious Taoism - espouse are embodied in such activities as Taijiquan, Qigong, Feng Shui and Traditional Chinese Medicine.

Although philosophical taoism has had its tough times here in the West - The Tao of Pooh, The Art of War for Salesmen, the usurping of the principles for such maudlin entertainment as Star Wars - it changes in order to survive, hopefully retaining enough of its identity so as not to disappear under an avalanche of commercialization.

[R. Paradon]

Hi my friend! I seem to find you everywhere! I am not that familiar with Taoism and mainly follow a Buddhist path.

Fortunately living here in Thailand it is not very much exploited by the Western attitude of "How I can make a buck!" It does happen from time to time because we are all basically people. It is too bad that so many good and effective paths, as well as religion can be spoiled by one or two charamatic people whose sole purpose is greed and ego.

[acharya]

In any discussion on Taoism (forgive my use of this spelling - it's what I've used for over 40 years) it is important to differentiate between the philosophical and religious practice of the Taoist principles. Some say that they are the same but I maintain that there is a world of difference between them.

Oh, they are absolutely different. You are certainly correct there.

The biggest difference in my opinion is that a religion is a structure, a tight, restrictive cage within which one must practice their beliefs. Philosophical Taoism has no such restraints - its practice area is unbounded. Religion imposes ritual and authority upon its practitioners. It decrees what must be obeyed, rather than suggests what might be followed.

I'm not so sure about this, though. Religious Daoism as I understand it is incredibly lax in terms of what one practices. It doesn't seem to be as hierarchal and dogmatic as other major world religions, and practitioners seem to generally practice what they want how they want. Though I'm sure that Daoist practitioners have certain regulations to abide by, I don't think they're anywhere near as strict as other major religions. "Philosophical Daoism" (Daode Jing, Zhuangzi, etc.) is obviously much more free and adaptable to one's own liking, but there is no religion to be found in either text.

Philosophical Taoism does away with the myths and legends, the ceremonies and the gilt-covered guilt and seeks merely to blend with the Way. It reflects reality - it can be as simple as Male and Female or as complex as Doing without Doing. The principles that Philosophical Taoism - as opposed to Religious Taoism - espouse are embodied in such activities as Taijiquan, Qigong, Feng Shui and Traditional Chinese Medicine.

I'm not sure that it "does" away with them. Technically, "Philosophical Daoism" was there first. As far as I know, there are no philosophical Daoist texts at all after China was first unified in 221 BCE. Religious Daoism, however, certainly expanded on these philosophical texts, taking aspects from Chinese folk religion and other practices such as alchemy, esoteric knowledge, and the like, and the combination of these things eventually became known as "Daoism." Saying that "Philosophical Daoism" does away with the myths and legends (etc.) implies that it comes after, not before religious Daoism. Finally, texts like the Daode Jing do inform arts such as Taiji Quan and Feng shui, but so does religious Daoism. For example, the five phases are an extremely important part of both Feng shui and Traditional Chinese medicine, but there is not a word written about them in the Daode Jing or the Zhuangzi.

Although philosophical taoism has had its tough times here in the West - The Tao of Pooh, The Art of War for Salesmen, the usurping of the principles for such maudlin entertainment as Star Wars - it changes in order to survive, hopefully retaining enough of its identity so as not to disappear under an avalanche of commercialization.

I'm not sure that this is accurate either. Originally, when Daoism came to the West, it was only the Daode Jing that scholars knew. They upheld it as the ultimate source of Daoism and its only sacred text, which is extremely inconsistent with the truth. After the Daode Jing was brought to the West, westerners became interested in it to the point where it became a sort of New Age phenomenon. It espoused a philosophy of "do as you like" and that greatly appealed to westerners. It meant something very different to them than it did to the ancient Chinese. Like Feng shui, Zen Buddhism, and even Wicca, "Philosophical Daoism" was a frequently hyped alternate to Western religion and philosophy. Commercialism followed shortly thereafter, and still arguably has its hold today.

This image of Daoism as a "do as you like" philosophy has since been repeated so frequently that commercialized books printed today such as the Tao of Pooh still print this as if it were all that the Daoist religion was based on. However, I don't think it's correct to lump Star Wars in that category as it does not purport to be about Daoism. Rather, it seems to have been more inspired by the Daode Jing if nothing else. Star Wars, first completed in the 70s, likely utilized the image of "Dao" as espoused in the Daode Jing since that was all the information that was made available on Daoism in Western languages until more recently.

Modern studies of religious Daoism and its sacred texts (esp. the Daozang) have since shown that the philosophy espoused by the Daode Jing and the Zhuangzi was not practiced like a religion in China, although these texts did occasionally inform the Daoist religion throughout history. This is why Laozi is often praised as a deity and why the Daoist creator god is often seen as a manifestation of the Dao. However, there do not seem to be many other bonds that link the Daode Jing with the Daoist religion. The true Daoist religion is the one that is finally receiving the scholarly attention it deserved for so many years.

I hope that information helps.

-- Acharya

[jdzla]

Maybe you are confusing the Chinese Folk Religion with Taoism. At least for me, Taoism is more of a philosophy than a religion in the sense of beliefs in gods and goddesses. The highly syncretic nature of spirituality in China and the Far East confounds the division between philosophy and religion and even the division between religions themselves!

[SifuPhil]

Maybe you are confusing the Chinese Folk Religion with Taoism. At least for me, Taoism is more of a philosophy than a religion in the sense of beliefs in gods and goddesses. The highly syncretic nature of spirituality in China and the Far East confounds the division between philosophy and religion and even the division between religions themselves!

Well, that's how it is for me also, but I do know that religious Taoism is a "thing" that has a structure remarkably similar to many other religions; it's my understanding that it came into being chiefly as a defense against losing adherents to other systems (Buddhism, etc.).

There are many texts concerning proper worship procedures, descriptions of holy days ... I even once had a book on temple design that laid out the exact requirements for building a new temple, complete with placements of icons and what I would interpret as feng shui directions for proper siting.

[kenlee]

Daoism is a further development of animism/Shamanism and is a nature based religious philosophy. It preaches (if you will) that there is a Way and life will work out better for you if you accept this and try to live your life with this attitude. Everything is in process and our business is to nurture this. There are no hard facts, no definate truths. All is transition.

[jdzla]

Well, that's how it is for me also, but I do know that religious Taoism is a "thing" that has a structure remarkably similar to many other religions; it's my understanding that it came into being chiefly as a defense against losing adherents to other systems (Buddhism, etc.).

There are many texts concerning proper worship procedures, descriptions of holy days ... I even once had a book on temple design that laid out the exact requirements for building a new temple, complete with placements of icons and what I would interpret as feng shui directions for proper siting.

On the contrary, I thought that Taoism has little to no systems. It's more about you and finding yourself in the way. The less dogmatic approach and emphasis of Daoism on consolation is what made it special. It would actually prefer a world of hermits.

Daoism is a further development of animism/Shamanism and is a nature based religious philosophy. It preaches (if you will) that there is a Way and life will work out better for you if you accept this and try to live your life with this attitude. Everything is in process and our business is to nurture this. There are no hard facts, no definate truths. All is transition.

What you say is true. The Dao De Ching is all about the permanence of impermanence. For someone to realize it is very profound. I'll go visit a Taoist temple once and tell you what I see.

[eveningmoons]

I think there is a danger of getting caught up with words. If you are out there looking for a tradition that is "uncorrupted" by it's filtration through the minds of men, then you aren't going to find it. My observation is that traditions have a certain flow and liquidity with which they move through various cultures. This is because they move with people, who are alive and not dead. You can rely on a dead thing not to change, but something that is alive is always in motion. So it is important to remember that traditions are kept going by the people who practice and talk about them (who may or may not have had any understanding themselves). This is not to say there is nothing to be learned from these traditions, but we must not seek to simply find a new image with which we can become identified. That is what the fundamentalists have done. They have tried to freeze time at some particular point in human history, and have identified their own immortality with the survival of that image. But is that immortality, or is it simply thought attempting to immortalize images?

[unarmedthinker]

I have always considered Taoism a philosophy first and foremost. Maintaining the integrity of the philosophy is difficult in the modern world. Elements will want to make the philosophy more popular and corrupt it with religious complications. The traditions are passed down through the generations but will the 'modern' generation want the traditions to be passed on? Religious ideas are introduced In a desperate attempt to maintain relevance.

[liowkc]

The pure form of Taoism as espoused by Lao Tze and Chuang Tze is definitely a philosophy of life and not religion. Soon, it becomes corrupted into a religion by Chinese rulers seek to control the masses. The corruption is most evidet in the many ceremonies and rites created mainly by the ruling class.

[SifuPhil]

The pure form of Taoism as espoused by Lao Tze and Chuang Tze is definitely a philosophy of life and not religion. Soon, it becomes corrupted into a religion by Chinese rulers seek to control the masses. The corruption is most evidet in the many ceremonies and rites created mainly by the ruling class.

Exactly how I see it. It became a matter of "me too" - "Hey, look, over here! We have gods and goddesses and holidays and rites, too!" It was simply a response to the increasing popularity of Buddhism, Confucianism and Hinduism in China.